Album Review

Score 7.5
Written by Chris McDonald
Published on 11/13/2011
Since its birth as a musical style, many have endorsed and embraced metal as an escape from the rigors of everyday life as opposed to a reflection of it; an opportunity for both artist and listener to transcend the obstacles of their own existence to reach a higher imaginative state. It is this escapist quality that makes metal and its culture so simultaneously endearing to its fans and incomprehensible to its detractors, and the growth of metal’s extreme offshoots widened the gap even further in this regard. This escapist attribute has become so engrained into metal’s aesthetic that when a work surfaces that is a blatant and unashamed reaction to recent events in the personal life of the musician, it’s understandably a rather shocking phenomenon, particularly in a style as “inhuman” as black metal often strives to be. So when pre-release reports showed that Wrest was revitalizing the dormant Leviathan and had enthusiastically themed his newest album around his recent domestic and legal disputes with an ex-girlfriend, shocked is exactly what I was.
 
Regardless of where you stand on the accusations against Wrest, being this openly personal with the resurgence of one of black metal’s most famed acts is a bold move to say the least. That he’s going about it in such a hostile, misogynistic manner is more unsettling than it is surprising, but Wrest has nevertheless entwined this work of music with his personal life to such an inseparable degree that it’s only natural to keep the circumstances of its inception and concepts in mind when listening to it. Rest assured, if this album had been titled “The Eve of Night’s Desecration” or something equally ambiguous, I would have been spinning it with quite a different mindset. As it stands, I find it difficult to appraise this album outside of the non-musical context from which it’s been conceived, which I’m assuming is what Wrest intended.
 
Ironically enough, it is through the lens of this context that I find True Traitor, True Whore most underwhelming. Based on the ferocity of the masterful Massive Conspiracy Against All Life, and the obvious resentment and rage that bubbles from this album’s title and track names, I was expecting a return to the project’s most seething, barbaric sounds -- a bubbling cauldron of hatred and anger that would truly shock the senses. Instead, Wrest has delivered a hazy, heavily atmospheric album that sounds more like a weirder Lurker of Chalice with a few “evil” riffs thrown in for good measure. While this isn’t an issue in and of itself, the album’s predominantly bizarre and lower-key nature clashes with the brazen animosity portrayed by its themes. It doesn’t add up, and the experience as a whole suffers for it.
 
Seriously, there’s remarkably little black metal, or metal in general, weaved into the compositions on this album. Wrest has always been talented at genre bending and incorporating outside influences into past Leviathan outings, but he takes it to a new level on True Traitor, and it’s pretty startling. While all of the songs contain moments of intense drumming and riff work, these feel more like short breaks rather than the main attraction. And even though these more vigorous moments are written to the expected high standard of Leviathan, the disappointingly thin and brittle production robs them of their intended intimidating aggression -- see opener “True Whorror,” the neutered riff and awkward drumbeat of which opens the album on a strained and ineffective note. Wrest’s normally outstanding vocals have taken a similarly worrisome hit; the cavernous distortion that used to give his vocals so much sinister energy has been replaced by more of a static crackle. Not only do the primary vocals sound significantly weaker, but they’re often buried in the mix to the point of being almost a non-factor. Bummer? Yes.
 
Fortunately, True Traitor, True Whore shines in its eccentric and less overtly-metal passages, of which there are many. While the production doesn’t do justice to the album’s more frantic riffs, or to dissonant exercises like “Her Circle Is the Noose,” it’s perfectly suited to Wrest’s legendary repertoire of subtle backing vocals, eerie guitar leads, and shimmering keyboard flourishes. These elements all sound fantastic and are exectued to near-perfection, and they reaffirm that the genius that fueled this project’s past releases has hardly been suppressed completely this time around. Oddly effective moves like the loop/blast refrain in “Harlot Rises” and the truly disturbing clean guitar that surfaces amidst a wash of ambient noise in the middle of “Every Orifice Yawning Her Price” are stunning examples of Wrest’s ability to layer a multitude of various sounds in a whole that is spellbinding. The mesmerizing progression of melodies in “Contrary Pulse” make it the strongest track here, and the recording of two old songs turns out to be a great move as well, as “Shed this Skin” and “Blood Red and True” are both haunting and compelling numbers that fit in perfectly with this record’s ominous vibe.
 
As a black metal album meant to serve as an unapologetic middle finger from Wrest, True Traitor, True Whore is a confusing disappointment. The flawed mix and basic lack of feral intensity in most of the songwriting makes the “revenge” theme feel nonsensical and the listening experience off-balance. But rest assured, there is some brilliant material contained on this record, and it makes forgiving the obvious stumbles an easier proposition. Wrest’s skill at foreboding ambient composition and melodically compelling atmospherics is beautifully realized, and while the album’s more intense, “evil” side is a let-down, the sheer mastery at work in this release’s other dimensions is enough to save the ship from sinking into mediocrity. Is True Traitor, True Whore the weakest Leviathan full-length? Absolutely. But it’s still a highly unusual and intriguing album for much of its duration, and it has the potential to be a rewarding listen for those willing to work past its flaws.



thetrooper's Avatar
thetrooper | posted on 4/2012 | Reply
I wanted to like this, but after the rift-fest that was Massive Conspiracy, this feels like a bit of a letdown.
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leycec | posted on 2/2012 | Reply
(Incidentally, the last comment is attributable to me.) Nice site metalreview's concocted here. Not quite the voluminous storehouse of sputnikmusic -- but these memorable, highbrow threads more than make up for that.
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Konradkantor  | posted on 2/2012
Not to be offensive to other writers or anything, but sputnikmusic reviews seem like nothing more than watered down versions of pitchfork, residentadvisor, and this website. The only writer that seems to have real taste over there is Deviant.
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Lolmatroos | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
I'm liking this quite a bit, actually more then I thought I would. The previous stuff was just a bit too much of... well too much of a soundwall for me, most of the times, and while I realise that if I want some more relaxed music Leviathan wouldn't or shouldn't be my 1st choice, but the work on this definitely feels a little more relaxed to me. It's not an instant trip into depravity, mental instability and extreme whorror so much, which I like.
Anonymous's Avatar
Anonymous | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
Score is to low, this is an 8, minimum
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Anonymous | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
for the love of god munnin plaese SHUT THE FUCK UP....PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anonymous's Avatar
Anonymous | posted on 11/2011
look at what you made me do munnin,i couldnt even spell please right
Anonymous's Avatar
Anonymous | posted on 11/2011
Stow it, Dorothy.
Anonymous's Avatar
Anonymous | posted on 11/2011
what r u his wet nurse?
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konradkantor  | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
DER IGEL SPRICHT... DUN DUN DUN.
Anxiety Hangover's Avatar
Anxiety Hangover | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
Who cares about Leviathan? I'm still patiently waiting for the next Lurker of Chalice album.
PolarBear's Avatar
PolarBear | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
Damn what the hell is goin on with all these responses? There's a blog section, you know...
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PolarBear | posted on 11/2011
And a forum section...
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CannibalDave | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
This album is seriously excellent, but I'm a borderline fanboy of Leviathan, so take my opinion for what it's worth. I got sick to death of waiting for Amazon to ship this to me, so I cancelled the order and purchased it off of iTunes for considerably less. I gather that lyrics weren't included and as a result, everyone seems to be dwelling a bit too much on what the motive of this album is. I say who cares? The music is what matters most and this album delivers. It's different that Massive Conspiracy, but then again I would have expected it be. I should also add I think the production is absolutely perfect.
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big_red01027 | posted on 11/2011
Agreed. Excellent album; I'm a fan of the production too. The clarity is great and I don't see any heaviness being sacrificed. If this album is less heavy than previous ones, it's because of the writing, not the production.
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greigoroth | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
Munin, this is serious: you are a genius. I don't think it's possible to find a more eloquent, intelligent and sensible set of posts anywhere, let alone on a music site. Awesome dude. BTW nice review Chris
Anonymous's Avatar
Anonymous | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
Score: Munnin = 100, Don't Panic = 0...game over.
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nightside_ | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
Nawww, he's written an album about her. Chick would be pretty flattered. Maybe they'll get back together now.
Anonymous's Avatar
Anonymous | posted on 11/2011
Chicks dig being called traitorous whores, they'll be back together for sure.
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GyZ | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
I respect your personal view on how you think metal is about escapism, but I think it is more your personal view indeed, and not a declared consensus in a hive-consciousness. Let everyone love metal for why they want to, including for much more complex things than to act on an urge to escape. As for the music, this album sounds pretty "real" to me, and I personally am totally content with its heavily decayed aural production, because it seems to do all kinds of vile justices to the subject matta'.
Anonymous's Avatar
Anonymous | posted on 11/2011
You have complex reasons for listening to metal? Please share... Personally I listen to metal because it produces a reaction in my brain that induces a large silly grin on my face and causes my head to start moving up and down in a 'banging' fashion, while my fist starts pumping in the air and wild hoots begin emanating from my vocal orifice. This sort droning and so called 'atmospheric' type of music does not do that for me AT ALL, so I would naturally have to say that it is shit.
dave's Avatar
dave  | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
This, to me, is brilliantly unhinged and threatening music. I've been spending a lot of time with it.
Anonymous's Avatar
Anonymous | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
good point, munnin. was thinkin the same thing myself. i'm a huge leviathan fan, but i've yet to really check this out.
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Anonymous | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
The album was under-whelming in comparison and hope for a Massive Conspiracy pt.2, however taking a look at the album as something different and letting go of that pt.2 hope this album is actually pretty crazy and talented of it's own merits. It's certainly a more artistic approach, which in and of itself is beneficial, cause really... Massive Conspiracy is certainly not to be topped so easily or directly making the same thing again. So success with True Traitor... a worthy Leviathan album to the legacy.
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PolarBear | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
Also, this album is pretty amazing. Kind of a middle ground between the brutal, technical, and cleanly produced Massive Conspiracy Against All Life and the filthy, dark, and strange Tentacles of Whorror.
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
@ Juho: just read the essay, maybe I’ll have to re read to fully digest it, but at a first read it seems to be more about the paradoxical aesthetics of repulsion in art (one of extreme metal biggest appeals, btw) than an artist’s responsibility on a social context, which I think is the issue I’m ranting about. Thanks for pointing me this material out, it’s very interesting. @ don’t panic: I’m not endorsing self censorship or censorship of any kind, I’m endorsing responsibility. My point is that if an artist is chooses to go against society’s norms, he should be ready and willing to face the consequences on a intelligent and adult way, something heavy metal artists (and a sizable portion of their audience) rarely do. As hard as it may seem to believe, I’m friends with a local black metal band whose bass player has very un-PC worldview. Recently, they opened up for Satyricon, and this guy publicly declared that his band was on an “on-going war against the Jews that are taking over the world”, which is kind both funny and unfortunate, since the band has nothing to do with the ns scene. I told him something along the lines “look, you have every right to express yourself, but this kind of statement can be very hurtful to your band, you can jeopardize a big event (my city has the third largest Jewish population in Latin America and they happen to be very militant) and that’s completely unfair to the other bands and the event’s organizer”. What surprised me is that the other three band members, instead of telling me something along the lines of “fuck you PC watch dog, heavy metal is about misanthropy and giving the middle finger to society” they actually agreed with me and tried to distance themselves from this statement. The bassist never mentioned anything remotely political again, and the concert went on smoothly. Now, you may think the band chickened out, personally, I think they just have enough common sense in them to understand that playing on the year’s biggest extreme metal event on our scene was way more important than giving a tough, misanthropic image or trying to gain notoriety by some far-fetched publicity stunt. Personally, had his statements been censored, I would’ve protested, because I’m completely intransigent when it comes to free speech, but there’s a point where people have to take responsibility on their actions instead of being a bunch crybabies who blame their problems on others. And that’s my point. It’s time that we, as a subculture, acknowledge that most of the negative stereotypes society holds against us are our fault and we have to stop feeding them by confronting them in a constructive way. One thing that still happens to me very often is that people ask me “how come at your age you’re listening to that awful noise, is there something wrong with you”? My answer is always something along the lines of “that’s what I like, I don’t expect you to like it, but if I don’t question your taste, why do you have to question mine”? That always settles any possible argument. Now, imagine what would happen if my answer was something like “no, what happens is that you’re a fucking idiot, a stupid sheep with no musical taste that settles on whatever garbage the media shoves down your throat, and you accept this like some cheap crack whore gobbling on cock”. Guess what? Whenever society has something to say about metal, our reaction goes more along the lines of the second answer. You think that society’s view on heavy metal is unfair? That’s fine, but be a man and do something about it, instead of acting like an angry teenager who can’t think of a better answer to every problem than a middle finger. And really, for once, stop bringing rap into the discussion it’s completely irrelevant. As I stated before, pointing out that rap (or any genre, for that matter) is worse than metal in any way does nothing towards changing society’s perception of metal or absolves us from our responsibilities as a subculture towards society. In fact, that position is especially childish, you’re reacting exactly like a schoolboy who gets scolded by the teacher for pulling some girl’s hair and goes “but this other kid goes around kicking girls in the playground, why I’m being punished” and starts crying instead of acknowledging that he did something wrong too.
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PolarBear | posted on 11/2011 | Reply
Okay, before anyone says anything, here are some "updates". The chick accused him of beating her (among other things) but there are no witnesses to this, but there are witnesses to her literally slamming her own head against a wall right before she went to the police, which would account for her bruising. A ton of people have come out in defense of Jef's character, yet in his ex's case, people have come out and shown a history of ugly breakups in which she has made very similar accusations against ex-boyfriends which were never proven. I don't know, I thought those were important facts left out of the initial reports. Everyone I've talked to says there's almost no way he'll lose this kind of case, so I'm kind of leaning towards believing him in his innocense.
Anonymous's Avatar
Anonymous | posted on 11/2011
Am I the only one who thinks that putting out an album that's basically a violent, hate charged revenge fantasy on a person while facing very serious assault charges against that person is really stupid? And yet we still wonder WHY the world looks heavy metal musicians and fans with such derision...
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
Sorry, that's me, forgot to log in.
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ManicAeon | posted on 11/2011
It's certainly not tactful, and I'm never proponent of real life violence, but if this is the guys' outlet for his frustration, then I would rather it be this than physical violence. I'll see how the guy's court case goes before really judging him, but I agree that public personal attacks may be a little far. It is a good album at least :3
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ManicAeon | posted on 11/2011
I didn't mean to sound like I was on anyone's side either in my post, if I came off that way. I'm not cool with the themes of this album no matter what has happened in Wrest's personal life. and completely agree with Chris McDonald that the lyrical themes are more unsettling than anything. It's one of those weird Burzum conundrums for me, where I may love the music but hate the guy/themes. Varg is just too far over the line, and I haven't decided whether this guy is as well. Condoning misogyny and violence against women is one thing that pisses me off more than anything. Done babbling, weird shit man.
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Anonymous | posted on 11/2011
I'm not saying the guy's guilty, that's for the court to decide. Since I'm an extremely casual black metal listener, I'm not automatically biased to think the guy's innocent like some people who enjoy his work might be, but I don't assume he's guilty either. My point is that the release of this album right now is not exactly helping his case. It's really hard for me to believe that nobody in his immediate circle told him something along the lines of "Look, man, I know you're angry and everything, but the fact is that you're facing charges of seriously assaulting an ex girlfriend that can result in jail time. You're a black metal musician, so odds are that the police, the judge and the jury are predisposed to see you as a violent person, and an album in which you go off describing violent acts of revenge against an ex lover with very graphic detail might not help prove otherwise, so why don't you chill out and wait for the dust to settle before releasing it?" I know there'll always a sizable portion of the metal audience that's attracted to this "wow, real deal evil music that was actually created by a truly deranged person" kind of marketing, but if there's so many people willing to rally around his innocence, the least they could do is actually care about helping him clean up his name and reputation, and the first thing they should do, IMO, is waiting this whole mess to clear up before releasing the album. I just hope this isn't just another tacky marketing strategy, I'd expect a lot better from Profound Lore records.
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
Me again. Sorry, I'm not having a good day, it seems. :D
Munnin's Avatar
Munnin | posted on 11/2011
In simpler terms, if they accuse me of beating the shit out of a guy and I want to prove my innocence, I wouldn't go around telling everybody how I'm going to beat the shit out of that same guy, and even if I was stupid enough to that, at least I have enough good friends around to tell me "stop being such a douche and just shut up". Seems poor ol' Wrest hasn't got that many good friends, or he's just too stubborn to listen... expecting people to judge this particular piece of music outside the context within it was conceived is just beyond stupid.
ManicAeon's Avatar
ManicAeon | posted on 11/2011
I completely understand where you're coming from, and I completely agree. The concept was a stupid, pig-headed move by someone who seems to have more anger than common sense. It's definitely all too stereotypical, and that saddens me. I don't really know what else to say. Definitely understand why the stereotypical-ness of it all is frustrating to people like you and I though.
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Danhammer Obstkrieg  | posted on 11/2011
@Munnin - I know where you're coming from, but my one question is: how are you so certain that he is "describing violent acts of revenge against an ex lover with very graphic detail"? Lyrics haven't been printed, and I can't pick out much of anything, so it seems like all you'd really have to go off of would be the song titles, which, while obviously suggestive of his current legal and personal issues, are hardly 'violent acts of revenge'.
Munnin's Avatar
Munnin | posted on 11/2011
That's a reasonable assumption anyone could make just from the song titles, music, general black metal world outlook and the extra musical circumstances surrounding this album, isn't it? I know, it's an ASSUMPTION, but still, it does make listening to this album very unsettling, like Chris pointed out.
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ManicAeon | posted on 11/2011
Good point Dan. I guess I should chill the fuck out until lyrics are released! The music here is quite good, so enjoy it while you can, and hopefully after lyrics are released.
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
So you guys don't listen to 99% of death metal and grind, with the anti-misogyny and all. Drop the self-righteous act, metal has never been politically or socially correct. And on another note, would you be so dumb to make an openly vengeful statement if you were actually guilty of domestic violence? Why would you assume Wrest is that dumb? All things aside, Conspiracy was better than this.
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
Wow, you're really original going there, man. :D Actually, I listen to a lot of death metal with pretty gory lyrics, but that’s just entertainment, not worse than watching a horror movie. If one of the Cannibal Corpse guys got busted for dismembering a teenage girl and sodomizing her corpse, probably their lyrics would take a different, really eerie meaning. :D This case is different, your analogy’s way off. There’s a big difference between being overtly politically correct and supporting or defending convicted criminals and trying to sweep their crimes under the rug just because they happen to make music we like. A lot of people in metal defend a racist douchebag and convicted murderer like Varg Vikernes yet get all worked up and attack the Liturgy guy with a passion bordering on insanity just because he talks and looks like a hipster … that’s just a symptom of how morally bankrupt a sizable portion of the metal audience is, and it explains why society in general still has such a low opinion about our subculture… Maybe you’re in a position to say “fuck society’s rules, metal’s not about fitting in”. Being 39, I’m not in that position and this kind of thing can be very harmful for metal listeners, since it feeds an endless loop of negative stereotypes I’ve been enduring for more than a quarter of a century now. Wrest’s being accused of domestic violence and instead of laying low and waiting for the dust to settle, he just goes and releases an album that’s basically a hate tirade against his accuser, a pretty stupid move, if you ask me, taken in the context that even today, heavy metal is heavily misunderstood by society at large and how the media feeds every negative stereotype that exists about our subculture any chance it gets. I’m not saying the Wrest’s automatically guilty, that’s for a court to decide. Really, I don’t even care if he’s guilty or not, I’m just questioning the timing behind the release of this album and how we, as a heavy metal scene, always wind up shooting ourselves in the foot when handling this sort of things. So, I’m not saying Wrest is dumb per se, but his actions at this moment and within the context he is going through right now are incredibly stupid, if you ask me.
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
You idolize society. Rappers boast about being in prison and become superstars and make millions of dollars. But we can't criticize them cause they are black. Society is organized hypocrisy. If you are 39 and didn't figure that out already....
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allbee45 | posted on 11/2011
dont panic- you really are making a small amount of sense
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
I don’t give a shit about rap, but I care a lot about metal. Whatever society thinks about rap doesn’t concern me in the least. Metal, on the other hand, does, since it society’s perception of metal has affected me personally for the last 25 years or so. Really, I expected a much more intelligent answer from your part rather than a comment such as “rap music sucks and black people can get away with anything”. I actually figured out society is “organized hypocrisy” around age seven. Like most sensible human beings do at that age. Over the years, I also figured out that society’s also something nobody can avoid being part of, and that a big part of my current and future happiness depended on how well I could reconcile my personal desires, objectives and values with the social context I lived and live in. That’s a natural part of growing up, you know.
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allbee45 | posted on 11/2011
stop making sense munnin you'll hurt somebody... grown ups are mean
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
So you are willingly trying to fit in to a tribe of hypocrites. What society thinks about metal should not be a concern cause it's fucked up already. That's what metal is about, confronting society's fucked-uppedness. You are a metalhead but you are concerned what "normal" people think of you. Don't you have enough self confidence? And your desires and relationships don't mean anything in the context of this discussion cause we are talking about art and expression. Nobody is asking Xasthur to torture people because he writes about misanthropy. Nobody is asking metalheads to burn churches and sacrifice live animals for Satan. But you are expected to muster the balls to say "fuck you" to societal norms, if you claim to be a metalhead. If you desire to be accepted so much, listen to what "normal" people listen to. Problem solved.
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
While “fitting in to a tribe of hypocrites” does put a roof over my head and feeds my daughter, “confronting society's fucked-uppedness” on the other hand doesn’t. You know, you’re sounding a lot like those South Park Goth Kids: “If you wanna be one of the non conformists, just dress like us, act like us and listen to the music we listen to”. :D Your “I know exactly what metal is all about and you don’t” rant is just as close minded and hypocritically fucked up as society’s perception of heavy metal. I’m might be a metalhead, but I’m also too old for childish shit like that. Good luck on mustering the balls to say "fuck you" to societal norms, by the way. :D
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
We're talking about perception of art, I presume, not feeding your kids and making ends meet. An engineer is not going to get fired from his job for listening to Emperor. And he's not going to get a promotion because he listens to U2. We are talking about an ideological stance here, but you insist on trying to make it about earning money. And newsflash, if you are listening to grown men talking about decapitating whores and hunting trolls in the fjords of Norway, you are somewhat childish. You might have a problem with pleasuring your inner child cause if the ever benevolent society realizes you've been listening to Leviathan, they might nullify your social security. Or so you think cause you have low self esteem.
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allbee45 | posted on 11/2011
lay of dont panic you sound like a douche. if anyone on here was ashamed of listening to metal they definitely wouldn't claim it for over 2 decades and anyone who goes out of their way to claim it or confront societal norms obviously doesn't have a clue who they are. oh and ideally metal would be void of dumbasses like yourself. there is my bit on ideology. And I think its a bit selfish to theme an entire album after some personal problem you have with somebody else. Consequences will be what they may.
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Frantic | posted on 11/2011
don't panic seems pretty manipulated about what metal should be...
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
@ Don’t panic: I know exactly who I am. I’m a 39 year old Account Director at a top rated RECMA media buying central who’s been loving heavy metal since the age of 11. I didn’t get there by listening to U2, but over the years, I’ve had to face countless negative stereotypes applied to myself in High School, College and throughout my career. Nobody’s gonna fire me for listening to Emperor, and even If my personal experience is that most people get pleasantly surprised when they find out that a guy who gets off “listening to grown men talking about decapitating whores and hunting trolls in the fjords of Norway” can also be an articulate, capable professional and responsible father too, they still have to clear a very big hurdle first. Personally, I think metal’s failure to deal intelligently with extremely negative issues like violence, misogyny, homophobia and white power is a big part of the problem, and this case in particular is just another example of this. Most metal listeners prefer just to ignore these extra musical issues on the idea that “only the music matters”, but IMO, that’s the wrong way to address the problem, since music doesn’t exist in a vacuum, it’s always part of a social system that constantly affects it and those who create it and enjoy it. Besides, I think you’re really confused about the meaning of ideology here. Fighting a totalitarian system while risking your life in the process, now that’s an ideological stance. Shouting “fuck you” slogans to the sound of amplified guitars while blaming others on your own problems and not being willing to be held accountable for your actions is not an ideological stance, that’s just childish behavior by immature halfwits who confuse offending people with making a valid point. My position, in a nutshell, is that maybe it’s time for us metalheads to be more responsible about what happens within our subculture and how it affects its relationship with society in general. Your position, on the other hand seems to be “fuck society, fuck society in the ear”. Frankly, I think my position is a lot healthier for heavy metal in the long run.
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
My point is very simple. Art should not be bound by societal norms. You are encouraging artists to be more politically correct because you were bullied in high school for listening to Priest. You could point out to your colleagues that those stereotypes are wrong, instead of advising artists to comprimise their vision. Isn't not caring about preconceived notions of aesthetics one of the things that make metal metal?
Anonymous's Avatar
Anonymous | posted on 11/2011
Art is always bound to society in one or another way unless the artist had never contact with any human being in his entire life.
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
Man, you’re way off, I never got bullied in High School for listening to Judas Priest, actually, back then, people my age thought I was cool for that, because in the 80s, cool kids were into metal. Strange as it may seem today, when I started playing Maiden ‘n Mötley covers at 15 I got more girls than I could handle despite being basically a scrawny little nerd. :D But seriously, when you’re saying that “art should not be bound by societal norms”, what are you talking about exactly? Are you talking about censorship or the notion that art should have no limits? Let’s say that I’m a performance artist that beats dogs to death because I consider that’s a valid form of artistic expression. In western society, that’s considered animal cruelty and it’s illegal, I can go to jail if I practice my art. What should I do in this case? Go ahead and beat dogs to death because my definition of art is completely at odds with society's because it includes needless animal cruelty and then bitch about how society censors me? What about the Norwegian black metal church burnings? Where they artistic expression or just criminal behavior which resulted in one death? See, the fact that art can be intertwined with criminal or socially inacceptable behavior doesn’t mean that artists should be a separate caste within society that can’t be held accountable for their actions. Your problem is you fail to recognize that art exists within a social context, and it’s an artist’s responsibility to work within that context or face the consequences if he chooses not to do so. Personally, I found obscenity related laws in the US laughable, but the truth is that most performers have to abide by them or face legal consequences. They can act politically to change them, but just bitching about them is kind of childish. I’m not advising artists to compromise their visions and I’m not endorsing censorship if that’s what you’re getting at, I’m just saying that heavy metal artists and listeners should start to take some responsibility on their actions instead of acting childishly expecting society to automatically embrace everything they do, especially when it comes to serious criminal acts.
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
You are trying to create false dichotomies. There's a whole spectrum of artistic vision, between killing dogs and being politically correct. One does not start burning churches just because he believes there should be no censorship. Metal musicians have already accepted the consequences of not being seen as exemplary citizens. This does not arise because they like burning churches, but because their artistic vision does not coincide with the values society has deemed acceptable. These consequences are not that harsh frankly. So being called a dumb headbanger once in a while is intolerable, why don't you rebrand yourself as a model citizen? But don't expect artists to start writing about unity, love, equality just because you like to fit in more.
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
Excuse me, but after you state something like “My point is very simple, art should not be bound by societal norms” you can’t weasel back to a more acceptable “there's a whole spectrum of artistic vision, between killing dogs and being politically correct” because you’re just contradicting yourself. Political correctness is not the issue here, it’s the moral implications behind defending and justifying criminal or anti social behavior because it’s supposedly part of an artistic process and sidestepping it by including free speech on the equation. I can agree that “one does not start burning churches just because he believes there should be no censorship”, one starts burning churches out of badly managed criminal impulses, which sadly, seem to be somewhat common and accepted between a metal subculture. My problem is not being called a “dumb headbanger” every now and then, is being thought of as an ignorant racist redneck at best or a bona fide sociopath at worst, and it happens to often to my liking, and again, my guess is the way heavy metal subculture has managed some issues over the years has a lot to do with this. I never needed to rebrand myself as a model citizen, btw. I’ve always been a model citizen that happens to love heavy metal but got tired of the idea that I should blindly accept some trappings that sometimes come attached to it because music ultimately trumps every moral value, something I never agreed with on the first place.
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Frantic | posted on 11/2011
don't panic, you're losing, bad! would you consider backing off? just a tip
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
Rap is more misogynistic, racist, homophobic than metal; but it's more accepted than metal. Society's perception of art and culture is warped. You fix that by telling ignorant people what metal actually stands for, not by advocating political correctness. Analogously, you are telling gay people to act more straight because society thinks they are deviants. Don't you know metalheads are not more violent, disgusting or unethical than the average person? The fault is not with the artist or the subculture, but with the ignorant majority of society. And this is not something metalheads endure exclusively. Every subculture suffers from stereotypes and is discriminated in one way or another. The solution is not trying to become homogeneous, but making people understand difference breeds creativity. You want metalheads to take responsibility of what? Listening to Leviathan? I'm sorry society, I have listened to Leviathan's latest album and thus have completely driven civilization into an era of barbarism. You are completely exaggerating it. Nobody is holding rallies to commemorate the stabbing of Euronymous by Varg.
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
Ex“The fault is not with the artist or the subculture, but with the ignorant majority of society. And this is not something metalheads endure exclusively. Every subculture suffers from stereotypes and is discriminated in one way or another.” Then it’s a subculture’s responsibility to educate society in its ignorance, expecting outsiders to understand and embrace your subculture blindly is just stupid. Problems is, metal artists and listeners have been feeding this ignorance offensive, standoffish and unnecessarily violent towards society, and in some cases, justifying criminal behaviors as some sort of artistically relevant act. “ The solution is not trying to become homogeneous, but making people understand difference breeds creativity.” I’m not talking neither about censorship nor about homogeneity, I’m talking about responsibility. “Rap is more misogynistic, racist, homophobic than metal; but it's more accepted than metal.” Even if I don’t agree with that statement, I don’t know how it can be relevant to this problem. Heavy metal is constantly misconstrued by society as a negative influence on people and the media’s constantly feeding negative stereotypes about metal listeners and musicians. In this context, do you really think that pointing out that rap (or any genre, for that matter) is worse solves the problem or somehow absolves us from our responsibilities as a subculture towards society? “Society's perception of art and culture is warped.” Actually, I think your perception of society’s what’s really warped. “You want metalheads to take responsibility of what? Listening to Leviathan?” Nope, I want metalheads to understand that our subculture doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and accept our responsibility in creating, nurturing and maintaining all the negative stereotypes associated to us instead of blaming them on “society’s ignorance and warped perceptions”. “Nobody is holding rallies to commemorate the stabbing of Euronymous by Varg.” I know a lot of people who, despite forensic evidence available still publicly defend Varg’s innocence and justify his racist ravings in the name of “defying society’s anti metal PC conventions”. Hey, even a writer in this site concluded a Burzum review with this album: “If Fallen has to be about something other than the music it contains, maybe it can be the album that makes people finally get the fuck over the whole “Varg killed a dude” thing. He was a murderer in 1993. In 2011 he’s merely a musician making fantastic black metal. May he continue to do just that.” I think that if the fact that a majority of metalheads don’t “get the fuck over the whole “Varg killed a dude” thing” is a good thing… and that paragraph’s exactly what I’m talking about when I say that most of society’s negative stereotypes we metalheads get smacked with are mostly our fault, and it’s time we start taking responsibility and doing something about it. Not supporting and justifying criminals just because they make good music could be a good start.
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Juho  | posted on 11/2011
Munnin, have you ever read Georges Bataille's "The Cruel Practice of Art"? I think you'd find it interesting in this context.
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Captain  | posted on 11/2011
Uh oh, all hell breaks loose once Georges Bataille enters the picture. "Story of the Eye!!"
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allbee45 | posted on 11/2011
this is all Polar Bear's fault first off. Can I chime in and say I think part of Munnin's point is that there are many metalheads who are very much law abiding citizens, who are very non-violent and very moral and rational and don't buy into or model their life after the extreme music they enjoy just as horror movie lovers don't model their life after that media. They need to take more responsibility for representing metal.Then there are a ton of idiotic people who allow or extenuate the negativity had against the genre. So really it isn't that hard to understand that people collective or individual need to take responisibility for their actions and others' reactions to them. Can't blame everyone else. But Munnin is one person at a time changing the perception people have of someone who listens to heavy and extreme music.
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
@ Juho: I vaguely recall reading something by this author back in College about 18 years ago, when doing a paper on the concept of transgression in art for a Semiotics course, but not this book in particular, I can't remember if it was something by him or a comment by other author. Gotta check this out, thanks.
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
You're advocating self-censorship openly. Because society does not think so highly of us, we should be more careful of what we write about and listen to. Rap is just an example demonstrating that society's perception of art is not something to be taken seriously. People who like loud guitars, who have done nothing wrong, have to go out of their way to prove their good will and cooperation to society? Surely we must have done something wrong, for society labels us as degenerates. This self-hatred is quite baffling.
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Juho  | posted on 11/2011
@Munnin: It's only an essay, six pages or something like that. I think it offers a compelling counterpoint to what you (and apparently many others) are saying about the subject. Like I said, I believe you'd find it very interesting.
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Anonymous | posted on 11/2011
http://www.sauer-thompson.com/essays/BatailleCruelPractice.pdf (for those who can't be bothered searching)
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
@ Juho: just read the essay, maybe I’ll have to re read to fully digest it, but at a first read it seems to be more about the paradoxical aesthetics of repulsion in art (one of extreme metal biggest appeals, btw) than an artist’s responsibility on a social context, which I think is the issue I’m ranting about. Thanks for pointing me this material out, it’s very interesting. @ don’t panic: I’m not endorsing self censorship or censorship of any kind, I’m endorsing responsibility. My point is that if an artist is chooses to go against society’s norms, he should be ready and willing to face the consequences on a intelligent and adult way, something heavy metal artists (and a sizable portion of their audience) rarely do. As hard as it may seem to believe, I’m friends with a local black metal band whose bass player has very un-PC worldview. Recently, they opened up for Satyricon, and this guy publicly declared that his band was on an “on-going war against the Jews that are taking over the world”, which is kind both funny and unfortunate, since the band has nothing to do with the ns scene. I told him something along the lines “look, you have every right to express yourself, but this kind of statement can be very hurtful to your band, you can jeopardize a big event (my city has the third largest Jewish population in Latin America and they happen to be very militant) and that’s completely unfair to the other bands and the event’s organizer”. What surprised me is that the other three band members, instead of telling me something along the lines of “fuck you PC watch dog, heavy metal is about misanthropy and giving the middle finger to society” they actually agreed with me and tried to distance themselves from this statement. The bassist never mentioned anything remotely political again, and the concert went on smoothly. Now, you may think the band chickened out, personally, I think they just have enough common sense in them to understand that playing on the year’s biggest extreme metal event on our scene was way more important than giving a tough, misanthropic image or trying to gain notoriety by some far-fetched publicity stunt. Personally, had his statements been censored, I would’ve protested, because I’m completely intransigent when it comes to free speech, but there’s a point where people have to take responsibility on their actions instead of being a bunch crybabies who blame their problems on others. And that’s my point. It’s time that we, as a subculture, acknowledge that most of the negative stereotypes society holds against us are our fault and we have to stop feeding them by confronting them in a constructive way. One thing that still happens to me very often is that people ask me “how come at your age you’re listening to that awful noise, is there something wrong with you”? My answer is always something along the lines of “that’s what I like, I don’t expect you to like it, but if I don’t question your taste, why do you have to question mine”? That always settles any possible argument. Now, imagine what would happen if my answer was something like “no, what happens is that you’re a fucking idiot, a stupid sheep with no musical taste that settles on whatever garbage the media shoves down your throat, and you accept this like some cheap crack whore gobbling on cock”. Guess what? Whenever society has something to say about metal, our reaction goes more along the lines of the second answer. You think that society’s view on heavy metal is unfair? That’s fine, but be a man and do something about it, instead of acting like an angry teenager who can’t think of a better answer to every problem than a middle finger. And really, for once, stop bringing rap into the discussion it’s completely irrelevant. As I stated before, pointing out that rap (or any genre, for that matter) is worse than metal in any way does nothing towards changing society’s perception of metal or absolves us from our responsibilities as a subculture towards society. In fact, that position is especially childish, you’re reacting exactly like a schoolboy who gets scolded by the teacher for pulling some girl’s hair and goes “but this other kid goes around kicking girls in the playground, why I’m being punished” and starts crying instead of acknowledging that he did something wrong too.
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
What you call responsible behaviour is political correctness. Is Varg going around saying "hey people I think jews are an evil cult, accept my beliefs and make me a superstar"? Which metal musician is vying for mass appeal whilst at the same time putting out controversial albums? Art does not have to be pleasurable to as large an audience as possible. Arghoslent makes awesome death metal; and if they had dropped the KKK act, they would've been semi-big. But they don't, it's their artistic vision. You cannot just say "hey arghoslent compromise because you are hurting the community" and then claim you are not preaching self-censorship. And the middle finger and fuck-yous are just a figure of speech denoting confrontational and transgressional ideas similar to what Palahniuk (and a ton of other authors) does in many of his novels. Beginning of the last paragraph of this review "As a black metal album meant to serve as an unapologetic middle finger from Wrest..." I actually don't care that much what society thinks of metal. I don't need to "tone down" my musical taste just because the majority of the society thinks it's disgusting. I have grown enough spine.
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
I forgot to mention the last sentences of your post. What have I and other "irresponsible" metalheads have done wrong to be likened to a boy pulling a girl's hair? Is it wrong to listen to anti-christian music because christians might get irate? Or do we have to make a public apology every time someone who listens to metal does a bad thing? Charter a plane to Bergen and wave our index fingers at Varg in a disapproving manner? Your association of transgressional ideas and guilt is a vehemently regressive concept.
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
"Is Varg going around saying "hey people I think jews are an evil cult", accept my beliefs and make me a superstar"?" Yes, actually, except for the "make me a superstar" bit. It was on this site, read it yourself: http://community2.metalreview.com/blogs/editorials/archive/2011/04/03/burzum-an-interview-with-varg-vikernes.aspx Regarding your other comments, it's obvious you're simply unwilling to even try to understand what I'm saying. Take this, for example: "I forgot to mention the last sentences of your post. What have I and other "irresponsible" metalheads have done wrong to be likened to a boy pulling a girl's hair? Is it wrong to listen to anti-christian music because christians might get irate? Or do we have to make a public apology every time someone who listens to metal does a bad thing? Charter a plane to Bergen and wave our index fingers at Varg in a disapproving manner? Your association of transgressional ideas and guilt is a vehemently regressive concept." First of all, you're confusing artistic transgression with being offensive. Second, I've been crystal clear about what I'm stating, but I'll do my best to put it in terms even you can understand: -Society at large thinks headbangers are basically violent shitheads and the media reinforces said stereotype every chance it gets. -Headbangers, hardly acknowledge that there are elements in our subculture that feed these perceptions. -Instead of trying to change these perceptions actively, every time heavy metal is negatively portrayed by mainstream media, headbangers a) Play the victimized outsider part, b) Confront society at large in a hostile and childishly offensive manner or c) Publicly support and defend criminal behavior related to heavy metal using stupid "art is more important than morals" or "let's give PC a big middle finger because that's the metal thing to do" rationales. -This feeds an endless loop of negative stereotypes about metalheads, which, as you get older like me, can get really annoying. -So my point is that instead of automatically blaming society, or political correctness, or rap, or the media, or religious authorities, maybe, as a scene, it would be a good idea to start taking some of that blame ourselves and act accordingly, like adults do. Regarding metal music that has questionable content, whatever it may be, I’m not asking anyone to compromise their artistic visions or stop listening to them, but I’m asking metalheads to take responsibility regarding questionable content. Now, let’s talk about Aghorslent, for a minute. If they want to be an openly racist and offensive band, that’s fine by me. If people like their music, that’s fine by me also. But I do think that if you listen to Arghoslent and defend their music (not their right to express themselves) and people label you as a racist, you at least have to acknowledge that it’s mostly your fault, and not society’s: if you listen to and defend openly racist music, it’s reasonable for people to assume that you’re a racist isn’t it? The problem is not society, is that you’re expecting people to make an unreasonable assumption: that the fact that you listen to and defend racist music doesn’t necessarily make you a racist. And let me remind you that in this particular case, we’re not talking about being overtly PC, we’re talking about musicians who openly justify violence against non whites and are affiliated with criminal white power groups. Same thing happens with Varg: even if Burzum’s music has nothing to do with nsbm, his statements over the years have fed the idea to people outside our subculture that extreme metal, violence and racism go hand in hand, and instead of condemning his statements and behavior, a sizable portion of the metal audience has gone out of its way defending him and his action because “he’s such a gifted artist”. When you ask something like “Is it wrong to listen to anti-christian music because christians might get irate?” I answer you no, not in the least. I’m actually an agnostic who comes from an ultra secular society where it’s actually illegal to pray on a state owned building without a special permit, and I personally enjoy especially virulent anti Christian music, but at the same time, I don’t go around insulting Christianity or consider Christians my automatic enemies like a lot of metalheads do. If a specially religious person questions the music I listen, I just quote that “do unto others as you wish others do unto you” verse from the Bible, works every time like a charm. And here comes the core of the discussion: I’m not expecting every metalhead out there to share my moral and ethic views between our subculture and society, but what I do expect if that those who disagree with me behave in a less childish manner and acknowledge that maybe their conflicting views with society might affect heavy metal as a whole, and it’s not entirely society’s fault, since our music doesn’t exist on a cultural vacuum. So, if we, as a subculture, accept and defend criminal behavior amongst our ranks, we can’t expect society not to stereotype us negatively, and pointing out that there are genres that have worst questionable content is completely irrelevant to the problem, that’s what I was trying to get at with the playground example, but I think that if you can’t understand that, trying to have an intelligent discussion with you is a complete waste of time: most of the time, instead of giving sensible arguments you attack me personally or accuse me of lacking self esteem. Are you conscious that your responses are confirming everything I wrote and in some meta textual you’re strengthening my position?
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
Yeah, you may be right. I sometimes get carried away cause it's the internet. And I'm about to start my mandatory military service, which pisses me off as well. Supporting crime is an extremely fringe thing in metal, you know that. Arghoslent didnot commit a crime, racism is not a crime, anti-semitism is not a crime, misogyny is not a crime. But stabbing a guy is. Metalheads are kinda happy that incident is over and Burzum is distancing himself from it and making music. Nobody is celebrated for being a murderer. And in an age where people liberally throw the horns when something cool happens, I'd say you are also exaggerating the prejudice. So Wrest is free to write a seemingly misogynistic album, right? But he should be wary that it might affect the subculture in a negative way. We as metalheads must not listen to Leviathan if we want our community to stay clean. I think of it as eating. Just because I ate a whopper, I don't become a hamburger. I process it, digest some of it and excrete the parts I don't need. I don't become a nazi when I read mein kampf. Let people explore new ideas and express them in creative ways, and let other people experience these new ideas freely without prejudice. Deeming the sharing of some ideas harmful is a slippery slope and will lead to censorship. This is documented in most theories of political correctness and tolerance as well. Instead of pressuring artists and communities, let people decide for themselves. You can criticize as much as you want, but ideological segregation is detrimental. Think of it globally. If every one campaigned against the works of art they didn't like, the world would be similar to Fahrenheit 451. And come on. We are in a metal review site. Most metal is purposefully confrontational. Its aim is to piss off as much people as possible. Where do you stop pissing people off? You can piss off christians but not women and Jews? Pissing off people is not a crime. If you are so wary of not offending people, you should not be listening to metal anyway. Even as innocent as a Slayer t-shirt is actually pretty offensive, if you know what I mean.
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PolarBear | posted on 11/2011
I think that after all of these long-winded and passionate responses, we can all agree on one thing; I have officially created the most controversial and heated thread in MR history! I did it!
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
@ Don’t panic: we’re finally getting into something resembling a civilized discussion. Let’s say first that supporting crime is not exactly an extremely fringe thing in metal, not to my knowledge or experience, but let’s leave it there. When you say “racism is not a crime, anti-semitism is not a crime, misogyny is not a crime”, you’re wrong, way wrong. Race, religion and gender based discrimination are crimes in most western societies. I almost got fired from my job five years ago for having a Dismember screen saver on my computer (where Iron Crosses Grow) and using a Slaytanic Wehrmatch tshirt on a company picnic since someone accused me of being a white power militant based on those two little things, but that’s an entirely different story. Hate speech, which is what Arghoslent is basically doing with its music, is a very serious crime in the US. And don’t get me started about Germany or Austria on anti-semitism and black metal bands who deny the Holocaust… Regardless, I think you’re still getting my point completely wrong. I’m not calling for censorship, I’m just calling for responsibility. Now, let me tell you a personal story to fully illustrate my point. 16 years ago, while I was in College, I took a year-long TV production program as part of my Advertising curriculum. Said program was directed by a fifty year old woman who, being a militant feminist, hated heavy metal with a passion, so you can guess our student-teacher relationship wasn’t exactly cordial. As the year went by, me and my chumps noticed that any work that anyone did that had any remote connection with women issues automatically got an A regardless of its quality… which lead us to hatching what we thought at the time would be the ultimate academic dick move towards her. Our mid-term project was to produce a video clip from the ground up. So, the program director split the class in two work crews and my crew got a folksy, Indigo Girls like duo to work with… which we all thought was a big steaming pile of shit. So, we proposed the program director to record some music ourselves and shoot a video with some actors, and she agreed. So, between one of my crew members (who played guitar), his younger brother (who’s a very good drummer) and me we recorded this Pantera styled (it was the mid 90s, after all) song about domestic violence, which basically said that all women are cunts who deserve to get slapped. Using this material, we did some performance shots and staged some ultra gory domestic violence images that we combined in a video clip that, from a pure technical point of view was flawless (and this was no small feat, considering it was the era of analog based, U-Matic video editing) yet it was incredibly offensive. Yeah, I know, I was kind of a dick in my early twenties. Well, when we showed the final product to the class, they all laughed uproariously at how ridiculously over the over the top the whole thing was and how we were lampooning our teacher. Sadly, she didn’t share our sense of humor, and we got an F, which seriously jeopardized our chances of successfully passing that course. At that time, we all got up in arms about “freedom of speech”, “political correctness”, “artistic visions”, “censorship” and how unfair this teacher was, and we even took our case to higher academic authorities because after all, we delivered a technically flawless product, which was our ultimate assignment. We finally manage to settle for a D, and we ultimately passed the course with a C. Now, the truth is that when we were standing behind our video, it was not about art, or censorship, or freedom of speech or political correctness, it was just about a bunch of immature boys trying to pull an immature prank and not wanting to deal with the ugly consequences. See, we could’ve perfectly shot a normal heavy metal video with “deeper” lyrics and imagery, and easily get at least a B, but we just went out of our way to be as offensive as possible, just for the sake of pissing a “square” off, but weren’t willing to face any negative consequence like sensible adults . In hindsight, I don’t think our teacher was wrong, part of her responsibility was teaching us that in the real world, questionable content can result in a backlash. And that’s my main point: most heavy metal artists and fans tend to react in the same way we did back then when it comes to questionable content. You want to record offensive, racist, homophobic, misogynistic music, that’s fine by me, if anyone tries to censor you, I’m willing to fight for you even if I get sickened by your views. You want to listen to that music, that’s fine by me also. You consider that art excuses criminal behavior, that’s ok, it’s your choice. Just be responsible and intelligent enough to accept the fact that by doing this, you’re going to get slapped with many negative stereotypes, and society’s not the only to blame here… it’s also you’re fault.
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
No, they are not crimes. Arghoslent members are not incarcerated, NSBM bands are not incarcerated, ultra-leftist punk bands are not incarcerated. There are however racist crimes, hate crimes and stuff. Racism, anarchism etc. in themselves are just ideas. Just because some states regard them as crimes doesn't change that fact. An idea does not become automatically "bad" because it was met with negative consequences. Criticizing Islam is punishable by death in many Muslim countries. There's a saying, "a bad example is not an example." Your anecdote actually proves my point. Your work was a viable expression of thought but it was met with disdain just because the authority figure didnot like its theme. Art does not have to agree with prevalent beliefs. And artists/artworks that don't agree with prevalent beliefs are not inherently inferior to those that do. I'm going to paraphrase I said something earlier. Transgressional artists are not bothered by being seen as degenerates. Actually, almost all of them regard the backlash as accolades. If someone said to Palahniuk "I can't admit to being a fan of your work because people will see me as a weirdo if I do", he would be gloriously happy. Every work of art does not have to pat your head and hug you. Some choose to slap you and pee on you. Take it or leave it. Just don't tell masochists to become normal people because you wouldn't prefer it yourself.
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
I think you just didn’t understand my example. My work wasn’t a viable expression of thought that was met with disdain just because the authority figure did not like its theme”, it was an extremely offensive video made with the sole purpose of pissing people off, and its authors weren’t responsible enough to face the backlash it brought because, in layman’s terms, we were just being a bunch of dicks about the whole thing. I agree that real ”transgressional artists are not bothered by the backlash they bring”, thing is, a sizable portion of heavy metal artists who do transgress society’s norms are bothered about the backlash they bring and don't take it maturely or intelligently, unlike Palahniuk or Marcel Duchamp, they just hide in the comfy accolades of their followers. You’re right, racism, anarchism, etc. in themselves are just ideas, but they’re also ideas that call for actions that go against societal norms, and anyone who publicly defends those ideas should be mature enough to accept the fact that they’ll eventually have to face a backlash and take it intelligently, something heavy metal musicians and fans rarely do. I completely agree with your statement that “Art does not have to agree with prevalent beliefs and artists/artworks that don't agree with prevalent beliefs are not inherently inferior to those that do”, but at the same times, most artists who don’t agree with prevalent beliefs, unlike some heavy metal musicians and fans, rarely engage in criminal behavior and then expect to be excused from it because of art’s sake… there’s the difference: while art can be about and even condone criminal behavior and it shouldn’t be censored for that, artists are not above society’s laws if they engage in criminal behavior as part of their creative process, and sadly, some metal fans actually maintain the opposite position: as long as it results in viable art, criminal behavior is the right of the artist. I mean, a sizable portion of the metal audience since condones the Norway church burnings as some kind of deep artistic statement against Christianity, when, arson is considered criminal behavior in any society. So yes, art doesn’t have to agree with society’s beliefs and values, but it does have to acknowledge that it operates within a social context. I can kidnap a girl, chain her to a post against her will and flail her while videotaping the whole thing, if the police jails me, claiming that it was an artistic performance won’t save me from going to jail for kidnapping and assault, even if I’m a recognized artist, will it? Paraphrasing myself, early impressionists went virulently against every aesthetic belief held about pictorial art up to that point, and faced a massive backlash for it, not only from academic circles but also from French society in general, yet last time I checked, Monet didn’t stab Manet because some critic thought they were the same guy. :D
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Anonymous | posted on 11/2011
Back then it would have been Manet who stabes Monet for having almost the same name :D
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Munnin | posted on 11/2011
Yup, Manet was kind of a dick, he gave his dad's girlfriend the good 'ol meat stab quite a few times, if you catch my drift. :D
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dont panic | posted on 11/2011
You're giving senseless examples. People being hurt against their will is not art. Nobody said it was art. You advised Wrest to not release this album because it would be stupid and it would mar his name. Then you called for like-minded metalheads to disencourage this type of expression because it was making the subculture look bad. That's political correctness. "PC is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies." The discussion is not about some theoretical inquiry into snuff films. Everyone involved, the artist, the audience, is in this voluntarily. Wrest being accused of domestic violence does not make him "less free" to write about misogyny than death metal bands.
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Anonymous | posted on 2/2012
Monstrously epic thread. I wholeheartedly support @ dont panic in this endeavor, and find it somewhat difficult to believe Munnin isn't simply trolling. Metal is, by definition, outsider art. Hence, the very act of diluting its extremism destroys its art. Metal sans extremism ceases to be metal, abandoning the very creed that lends it credence. Until such time as the mainstream feel sufficiently alienated, disaffected, and disabused of the ineffectual comforts of modern consumerism, metal will remain what it is and Valhalla willing shall continue to be: musical resistance in this Age of dying light.